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There is SO Much in Gods Word , and no one has it all down right,
I don’t understand how someone could criticize anyone for trying
Question/Comment:
----- Original Message -----From: XXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXTo: reborn@oraclesofgod.orgSent: Friday, January 07, 2011 2:15 AMHi , to who ever it may concern….
I was reading what you had said about Shepherds Chapel, Arnold Murray…. And I will be totally honest with you, I was willing to hear you out and read all you had to say, for I feel the same as you…. We are to study our Fathers Word for our selves , Not to just take mans word. But when I got to the part where you started putting Murray down, is where I stopped … I am searching for the truth and digging and praying that I find it. I have come to find out that so many feel they have found the truth , but how ? when there are so many that can twist , or make it sound to what they teach.. I don’t feel however , that there is need to trash someone or anyone for that matter.. There is SO Much in Gods Word , and no one has it all down right, I can assure you that . There are more to God’s Word to learn, and just by reading it alone, we just are not going to get it. I have been studying Hebrew and Greek also, and you know what ? I just learned that Fathers Word is all music ! And I could be wrong about that ! I have also learned that Gods Word are written in the pyramid and the stars….But we must study all that to understand . But actually what brought me to this point , ……. I don’t understand is how someone could criticize anyone for trying . I don’t think that is what God wants us to do. If you find fault in any teacher , that is fine, but why cut him down ? HE is only man as you are or anyone else here .. If he brought you to God , then why put him down ? Isn’t just telling what you believe enough ? I hope you don’t think I am being mean, because I am not…. I am however just troubled with all religions, or what ever you want to call them, that think they know it all (truth of God’s Word) and talk down about someone else, that believes in Christ and our Father …. I just don’t get it…. I just pray that it is close for God to come, cause I am so sick of this world today…
Sincerely with all my heart ,
XXXXXXXX
----- Original Message -----From: Paul StringiniTo: XXXXXXXXXXXXXXXSent: Tuesday, January 11, 2011 12:34 PMSubject: Re:
Hello XXXXXXXXX, Thank you very much for writing, this is a very common concern many people share and I hope I can shed a little light on the subject for you.I was reading what you had said about Shepherds Chapel, Arnold Murray…. And I will be totally honest with you, I was willing to hear you out and read all you had to say, for I feel the same as you…. We are to study our Fathers Word for our selves , Not to just take mans word. But when I got to the part where you started putting Murray down, is where I stopped …I'm not precisely sure what you meant by "putting Murray down." The only thing I can think of is the fact that I do take a very dim view of his teachings and the methods he uses to reach the conclusions he bases his teachings on and I do call him reckless and what he does to the word corruption. In my defense I would like to remind you that this is a purely professional opinion, having nothing to do with him on a personal level. Of course that is a very thin line because everything we do before God is personal, I certainly take my teachings and ministry personally. Still, people have written me with accusations against Dr. Murray which I have refused to print, not only because they were not provable, but, as I tell these people, time and time again; I'm only interested in criticizing the doctrines of Pastor Murray, and in so doing I suppose it is impossible but that the man will also be called to account for what he is doing. People talk about him having been in the clan years ago and all sorts of other things that shouldn't mean a thing to anyone, I'm only interested in the man's ideas in the form that they are dispersed in today.About one quarter of the mail I receive is from people who object to the way I have gone after Arnold Murray's ministry and teachings. And I suppose that shouldn't be surprising because one of the things Dr. Murray teaches is that it is wrong to criticize other ministers. That is not a biblical teaching. That is a convenient teaching that serves the interests of elite ministers like Dr. Murray, they instantly make all their critics sinners. There are examples in scripture which make it clear what the biblical view on this matter is:Romans 16:17 Now I beseech you, brethren, mark them which cause divisions and offences contrary to the doctrine which ye have learned; and avoid them.
18 For they that are such serve not our Lord Jesus Christ, but their own belly; and by good words and fair speeches deceive the hearts of the simple.Paul calls us to mark them which "cause divisions and offenses contrary to the doctrine" At that time the church was unified around the apostles doctrine, these days it seems that no one can agree what the apostles' doctrine really is. But we know that it is contained in the scriptures. The call to "mark them" is notable because it is contrary to what a lot of people tell me what I should be doing. People tell me that I should not be marking Dr. Murray, but Paul does not say "mark their teachings but don't mention their names" Of course discretion is definitely needed whenever someone is being named as a false teacher, yet still, refusing to speak plainly in regards to false teachers can be irresponsible and hurt people.
Another quarter of the emails I get are from people thanking me for my work, It is hard for me to listen to the voices who say "stop hurting Dr. Murray" (and I have done him no harm) when there are so many voices saying "keep it up." You know, this is not easy, quitting would be a lot easier. I'm not a paid minister, my ministry brought in $0 in donation over the past several years. As a former student of the Shepherd's Chapel, I made people who were my friends and donors into my enemies.I'm certain you know this verse2 Timothy 2:15 Study to show thyself approved unto God, a workman that needeth not to be ashamed, rightly dividing the word of truth.
But don't forget these!16 But shun profane and vain babblings: for they will increase unto more ungodliness.
17 And their word will eat as doth a canker: of whom is Hymenaeus and Philetus;
18 Who concerning the truth have erred, saying that the resurrection is past already; and overthrow the faith of some.I could not ask for a better example. Paul here actually names two fellows who have erred in doctrine. They ought to be named and that is why I name Pastor Murray and also detail the full extent of his error. If that makes him look bad then who is really to blame? And this verse is doubly important because not only does it demonstrate there is nothing dishonorable in naming those whose doctrine has bee corrupted, but this passage also specifically mentions a doctrine taught by Arnold Murray, I mean the teaching that the resurrection has already happened, as Dr. Murray says of the dead "they are with him." His teaching of the transition of souls from one plane of existence to another at death is in direct contradiction to the teachings of the apostles that the dead sleep and await resurrection. "Past" does not carry the connotation of "is over" or "you missed it" just the Idea that it has already come, and that is identical to Dr. Murray's teaching that the dead have already risen and that is not the faith of Christ. The resurrection is a future event to which all believers should be looking.John 5:28 Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice,
29 And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation.Anyway, I know that most people have been conditioned to misread the scriptures in a certain way on this subject, I can account for Lazarus and the rich man and the thief on the cross , but there are so many scriptures on my side that I never hear anyone account for. I have seen an evil among men, they are not taught by the bible what it is right for men to believe, the teachers of the bible are teaching the bible itself what they think it should say, according to their own wisdom and "common sense."
I am searching for the truth and digging and praying that I find it. I have come to find out that so many feel they have found the truth , but how ? when there are so many that can twist , or make it sound to what they teachOne of the problems people have with the bible is when they come across a passage that they think does not make sense, for example, in reference to the resurrection of the dead (a foundational doctrine of Christianity) one will find verses like these.Rev 20:5 But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection.Seems fairly straightforward, but if you have a doctrine that contradicts this idea, then one might start thinking about "interpreting" Of course if the bible was written differently, one would never have to worry about interpreting. There are certainly times where "further explanation" may be required to fully understand a passage. But this should be used as little as possible and then carefully. Most of the errors people believe, come from interpreting away and ignoring clear scriptures in order to hold to a beloved doctrine that is based on weaker scriptures and interpretations. Sometimes our sense that something is "right" rests more on our own desires and opinions than on the teachings of scriptures.For example the following scriptures paint a pretty clear picture when we let the bible teach us and not vice versa.Ecclesiastes 9:5 For the living know that they shall die: but the dead know not any thing, neither have they any more a reward; for the memory of them is forgotten.
Psalms 146:3 Put not your trust in princes, nor in the son of man, in whom there is no help. 4 His breath goeth forth, he returneth to his earth; in that very day his thoughts perish.John 3:13 And no man hath ascended up to heaven, but he that came down from heaven, even the Son of man which is in heaven.Acts 2:29 Men and brethren, let me freely speak unto you of the patriarch David, that he is both dead and buried, and his sepulchre is with us unto this day.
30 ...seeing this before spake of the resurrection of Christ, that his soul was not left in hell, neither his flesh did see corruption.
32 This Jesus hath God raised up, whereof we all are witnesses.
... 33 For David is not ascended into the heavens: but he saith himself, The Lord said unto my Lord, Sit thou on my right hand,
35 Until I make thy foes thy footstool.1 Thessalonians 4 16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:(Pastor Murray says that this means that the dead have already risen and are with Christ in heaven, but that is the same error as Hymenaeus and Philetus; saying that the resurrection is past, the truth is that the dead shall rise first at the coming of Christ and not sooner, if you read Paul plainly, it is obvious that is what he is saying).Why am I bringing this up? To illustrate a point, when I say all this people basically fall back on four scriptures and the traditions they hold dear.1) Lazarus and the rich man, a parable, I have written extensively on this one but anyone should know that a parable is certainly a reasonable place to do some "interpreting" Unlike the passages above which are clearly doctrinal and instructive in nature, the subject of the passages I rely on is death and resurrection, the subject of Lazarus and the Rich man is the fact that men do not hear the law and the prophets and neither will they hear one risen from the dead.2)The penitent thief. "I say to you today, you shall be with me in paradise. " This is something lifted from a narrative, it is certainly reasonable to question whether Christ meant "Today I'm saying this" or "This is what will happen today" but fortunately we have other scriptures which can put the matter to rest, "His soul was not left in hell" Jesus did not go to paradise, he went to the grave, his SOUL went to the grave, that is the doctrine of the Apostles. So he must have meant that the thief would be with him in paradise in the resurrection, not on the day of the crucifixion. He was saying, "I'm telling you this today, that in the resurrection you will be with me in paradise." Add to this the fact that it says in John 3:13 "NO MAN hath ascended into heaven" except Christ, also words found in DOCTRINE and the case is clear.3)To be absent from this body is to be present with the Lord. That is a corruption of the scriptures which say no such thing. Paul was not being axiomatic or even taking about what it is like to be dead6 Therefore we are always confident, knowing that, whilst we are at home in the body, we are absent from the Lord:
7 (For we walk by faith, not by sight:)
8 We are confident, I say, and willing rather to be absent from the body, and to be present with the Lord.
What he is describing is our desire, and really this verse does not contradict the idea of the resurrection, if you read it with the resurrection in mind. "and to be present with the Lord. (in the resurrection). There is not a lot of interpreting in doing that, it is simple but what do you have to go through to explain Ecclesiastes 9:5 Psalms 146:3 John 3:13 Acts 2:29 1 Thessalonians 4 16 (the scriptures I mentioned above)?
4) The spirit returns to God who gave it. (Ecclesiastes 12)Man became a living soul when God breathed the spirit of life into him, but man is not the spirit of life. I refer again to the prior scriptures. I have no doubt that David's spirit returned to God when he died, but the person David, is dead and buried. When Christ "gave up the ghost" he said "father into thy hands do I commend my spirit." But his soul was not left in hell and he said himself on the morning of his resurrection "Touch me not for I have not ascended to my father." Very, Very clear.What am I getting at? It is most important that we decide correctly which scriptures we will base our doctrines on, we have to be able to account for all of them without getting too far out on our interpretations.I don’t feel however , that there is need to trash someone or anyone for that matter..Neither do I, and I really do not feel that I have trashed Dr. Murray in an inappropriate manner or that would be repugnant to the doctrine and practices of Christ and his Apostles, others have written me asking me to trash him and I refused, one thing I do believe I can say for myself is that I have confined my "trashing" to the doctrinal ideas he holds, and yes I suppose that I have trashed his ideas and trashed him for teaching those ideas, but I have never taken a cheap shot or printed unsubstantiated allegations or hearsay against him.There is SO Much in Gods Word , and no one has it all down right, I can assure you that .So you say, but what even qualifies you to say that? How do you know? By what doctrine? By what scripture? The Apostles indicate we should have higher standards than thatTitus 2:6 Young men likewise exhort to be sober minded.
7 In all things showing thyself a pattern of good works: in doctrine showing uncorruptness, gravity, sincerity,
8 Sound speech, that cannot be condemned; that he that is of the contrary part may be ashamed, having no evil thing to say of you.2Cor 2:17 For we are not as many, which corrupt the word of God: but as of sincerity, but as of God, in the sight of God speak we in Christ.The doctrine that teaches that no one can have the right doctrine, is straight from Satan. I'm not saying "I know everything," not by a long shot, but we out to hold to doctrines that are UNCORRUPT, PURE, because false doctrine is sin.The problem with people is that they do not want sound doctrine but heap to themselves teachers looking for someone to scratch their ears. You say you are interested in the truth but you have faulted me for doing my job in Christ I marked a man whose doctrine is corrupt.There are more to God’s Word to learn, and just by reading it alone, we just are not going to get it.I don't find that in the scriptures, we should get it, it is only hard when we cling to our own thoughts and wisdom. They read the bible searching for things to confirm their own ideas.I have been studying Hebrew and Greek also, and you know what ? I just learned that Fathers Word is all music ! And I could be wrong about that !Well the other end of my ministry is making the bible into music, I certainly hear music when I read it. Have you seen the rest of http://oraclesofgod.org ? My first ministry is to sing the bible.I have also learned that Gods Word are written in the pyramid and the stars….But we must study all that to understand .If it is impossible to discern the truth from the scriptures... then how shall you get it from the inscrutable stars and the monuments of men? I have those books. And they are interesting but unnecessary. If you do not start out with a solid foundation of SOUND DOCTRINE everything you build on it will only be all the more weight to come crashing down when the foundation is swept away. Please understand, I'm not trying to be mean, I'm just trying to tell you that the truth is not hidden in the stars or in the pyramid, it is in your heart, that is where it needs to be written.But actually what brought me to this point , ……. I don’t understand is how someone could criticize anyone for trying .Well, I think you need to look a little harder. I think I've explained this. But to add to what I've said, Dr Murray is not just trying, he is succeeding and leading thousands, and his doctrines are so far-out and strange and that alone is enough to bring him and his ministry to destruction, and this is why:Gal 5:19 Now the works of the flesh are manifest, which are these; Adultery, fornication, uncleanness, lasciviousness,
20 Idolatry, witchcraft, hatred, variance, emulations, wrath, strife, seditions, heresies,
21 Envyings, murders, drunkenness, revellings, and such like: of the which I tell you before, as I have also told you in time past, that they which do such things shall not inherit the kingdom of God.
Heresy is sin. And you may not see anything wrong with it, but God does not take them that corrupt his doctrine LIGHTLY. Those that corrupt the doctrine of Christ are specifically excluded from God's kingdom. And what of those that hear them? They love to have it so. So why should their judgment be lighter?I don’t think that is what God wants us to do. If you find fault in any teacher , that is fine, but why cut him down ?I guess it would be helpful if you would cite some specific example. Are you saying "find fault but say nothing"? The bible defines that as HATRED. XXXXXXXXXXX, you seem like a very nice person, and I'm sure that you are just as nice as you seem, but so was Peter, and you are reminding me of him right now, you savor the things which be of men and not the things which be of God. Men savor "lets get along" but God says this:Lev 19:17 Thou shalt not hate thy brother in thine heart: thou shalt in any wise rebuke thy neighbor, and not suffer sin upon him.
God calls it HATE when you see someone sin and do not rebuke them, If I were to suffer Pastor Murray's False doctrine to continue unrebuked it would mean that I hated him, and I do not want that on my soul.HE is only man as you are or anyone else here .. If he brought you to God , then why put him down ?He did not bring me to God, he brought me to his doctrine, he was my first bible teacher, that is why I focus on him, because he was my teacher. But my dad prayed over me from the day I was born and, simple man that he was, it was he who taught me to seek Christ and read my bible, not Dr. Murray, so give credit where credit is due.Isn’t just telling what you believe enough ?It never was for any of the Apostles or Prophets, for Moses Or Christ, they were all always casting the truth against the lies of their days. Christ Against the Pharisees, Paul against the Judaizers, John against the Gnostics, Elijah against the prophets of Baal, it goes on and on. If you have read the scriptures, you should have been able to answer this question for yourself, but I'm speaking plainly with you , these ideas of yours are not from God. (and actually these are not even her ideas, they come from our culture, not the bible, these ideas are part of the spirit of our times)I hope you don’t think I am being mean, because I am not….Not at all and I hope you see that I'm not being mean either, I just want to speak plainly with you because I want you to see that you are talking to me out of your own wisdom and not from the wisdom that the scriptures teach. I say that in love, not because it makes anyone feel good, but because what I say is the truth, .I am however just troubled with all religions, or what ever you want to call them, that think they know it all (truth of God’s Word) and talk down about someone else, that believes in Christ and our Father …. I just don’t get it…. I just pray that it is close for God to come, cause I am so sick of this world today…I understand your frustration, I was at a similar point several years back, I thought, what is the point of all this doctrine anyway, I believe in this they believe in that, why don't we all just get along, and that is the fruit of the false teachers, they generate APATHY, there is no ZEAL in your words, no FIRE, where is your FIRE? They steal it from you. They steal God's words, they themselves do not have them, and they teach you that you cannot have them either, but I tell you otherwise, you certainly can have the truth if you seek it instead of looking for the easy way and for the things that agree with you.Sincerely,Paul Stringini
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